Butches are and have always been so important!!! Stone Butch Blues & Work in Progress should be required reading and watching for any queerdo!!!
Ugh, our cishetero capitalist hellscape has definitely meant Thinness and Whiteness have sneakily reoriented our understanding(s) of queer representation and embodiment, and it makes me sad. Then again maybe I am romanticizing a past where other nuances were ironed out in the service of understanding Butch identity as valid? I don’t know. I just think words mean things and the evolution of how we use language certainly points to our shifting beliefs, and I worry that the pivot to “masc” isn’t so much about broadening our understanding of gender expression but instead a sign of some leftover internalized homophobia.
Idk why but this watered down ‘masc’ version of lesbianism seems to be the only acceptable way to be a gay woman sometimes, even within flinta spaces it’s like venerated and desired most of all
Totally. And I think whiteness and thinness play into that big time. There’s become this idea that there is a normative presentation of queerness, the aesthetics of which all rely on Thinness and whiteness. It’s all rooted in the same anti-fat, anti-Black ideology. And it is not politically Queer, in my opinion!
It’s particularly annoying in the Lucy Dacus video bc I can only assume she is 100% aware of who she is excluding as a queer woman. She has some power in how queerness is portrayed and is actively choosing to centre thinness and whiteness in a ‘look at how cute and unthreatening we are’ kind of way.
Completely! And that’s not to discredit the people in the video who are not white, but it’s the open-casting call element that sort of casts a shadow on everything—because despite how many people posted, the people chosen fit a narrow parameter and were famous already or popular tiktok people. Which is fine if that’s what you wanna do, but don’t frame it as some open casting and also the news outlets framing it as a massive victory (and some of the people in the video who have come out and said it’s the first time there are queer people in a music video) is just…..come on. I think if there hadn’t been so much hype around it it wouldn’t be so annoying. But setting up all that context led to a huge disappointment!
The first thing that popped into my head when I watched that video was 'why is this just multiple versions of one 'type' of lesbian?' I was excited to see all the beautiful 'varieties' of lesbians only to be disappointed. Great essay, you put into words the odd feeling that I had!
Extremely online lesbian discourse makes identifying as butch fraught. My (transmasc) boifriend and I both identify/identified as butch IRL. When I was more online, I identified as “masc” more often.
There’s something about online lesbian culture that overemphasizes and even fetishes the historical butch/femme dynamic. (There’s also an overemphasis/fetishization of stone tops/pillow princesses online, which I think is related. Obviously stone lesbians exist and are valid, but you’d think they are 50% of the population if you go by Reddit.)
I’ve always been made to feel like I was appropriating “butch” in online spaces because I’m more interested in butch4butch than an exclusive butch4femme. I’ve almost been made to feel that my unwillingness to fulfill the historical gender/sexual roles of a butch. This is stupid.
I do think it’s a slippery slope to talk about “overemphasis”. Ultimately, the Butch/femme dynamic was foundational to Queer liberation and I will never dismiss that history and significance. I think a lot of the problem lies in people not knowing their history and gaining all their knowledge from online interpretations of terms that are not just buzz words or aesthetics but identities.
I don’t disagree that online discourse makes most things fraught and also often distills things down to the simplest terms and easiest definitions — especially on TikTok, for example. I can understand what you mean re: overemphasizing certain dynamics. I also think that a lot of Online Queer Discourse is very online and not reflective of how queer people really live or talk or move through the world.
I’m largely interested in the ways that the transition from “Butch” to “masc” online parallels a rise in a specific normative presentation of thin, white queerness. I’m coming from a fat studies perspective and I do think it’s interesting that “masc” has taken over at the same time that specific body standards become popular again (not that they ever left, but….) and how that plays out online in particular. I don’t think that it is stupid to point that out.
I’ve also noticed this weird shift from butch to masc that also seems to just … completely erase butches? Like yes butches are “masc” but they’re also butch! And I feel like there’s some rejection of that term now in favour of the skinny white mascs, as you’ve said. I still enjoyed the video though, despite Cara Delevingne lmao, and thought it was nice to see masc queers in community and also kissing.
Absolutely agree! It’s a very strange shift that I can’t help but believe is rooted in Thinness as a structure and how that’s seeing a big push on platforms like TikTok.
And yes I totally get it! I love to see hot queers kissing.
I completely understand! I'm in the dissertation phase where sometimes I'm like....listen, I cannot even begin to formulate other Smart Thoughts right now haha.
Thank you Darby for yet again pointing out that people doing “totally groundbreaking stuff”, doesn’t fully hit the mark when it comes to inclusion. But mainstream normies are incapable of realizing.
I’m still convinced Cara paid her way to be there, like she does for all things she gets into.
I think Lucy has been reacting to people using the song as music for TikTok videos, maybe someone will gather an actual group of Butches and Studs to show how it’s done? But yet again an instance of them doing the work that someone else thought they had accomplished.
People reading this comment not realizing you're my big sister and thus giving me too much credit for a very off the cuff rant, but I love you!
I don't know, the whole thing is very odd -- and the idea that Lucy is the first person to have queer folks in a video is wild. But here we are!!! BRB gonna go listen to some k.d. lang.
Yeah thanks for sharing this piece. I wholly agree with your takes and appreciate you publishing this especially since the mainstream outlets r not talking abt it
Thank you! It was as articulate as I could be off the cuff. But DANIEL....I saw some people (who I can only assume were a lot younger) on TikTok saying something about how it was nice to see a mix of people (lol) including "masc of centre". WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?! Is this 8th grade Canadian social studies??? What's the CENTRE???!?!
THANK YOU
Heavy on the why was cara delevigne there!!!!
Thank you!!! I had commented about this on a TikTok and somebody responded to me: “well she’s pretty masc” and they were not kidding!!!
god please bring back BUTCHES and STUDS not the skinny white girl in a H&M blazer amen
Butches are and have always been so important!!! Stone Butch Blues & Work in Progress should be required reading and watching for any queerdo!!!
Ugh, our cishetero capitalist hellscape has definitely meant Thinness and Whiteness have sneakily reoriented our understanding(s) of queer representation and embodiment, and it makes me sad. Then again maybe I am romanticizing a past where other nuances were ironed out in the service of understanding Butch identity as valid? I don’t know. I just think words mean things and the evolution of how we use language certainly points to our shifting beliefs, and I worry that the pivot to “masc” isn’t so much about broadening our understanding of gender expression but instead a sign of some leftover internalized homophobia.
Idk why but this watered down ‘masc’ version of lesbianism seems to be the only acceptable way to be a gay woman sometimes, even within flinta spaces it’s like venerated and desired most of all
Totally. And I think whiteness and thinness play into that big time. There’s become this idea that there is a normative presentation of queerness, the aesthetics of which all rely on Thinness and whiteness. It’s all rooted in the same anti-fat, anti-Black ideology. And it is not politically Queer, in my opinion!
It’s particularly annoying in the Lucy Dacus video bc I can only assume she is 100% aware of who she is excluding as a queer woman. She has some power in how queerness is portrayed and is actively choosing to centre thinness and whiteness in a ‘look at how cute and unthreatening we are’ kind of way.
Completely! And that’s not to discredit the people in the video who are not white, but it’s the open-casting call element that sort of casts a shadow on everything—because despite how many people posted, the people chosen fit a narrow parameter and were famous already or popular tiktok people. Which is fine if that’s what you wanna do, but don’t frame it as some open casting and also the news outlets framing it as a massive victory (and some of the people in the video who have come out and said it’s the first time there are queer people in a music video) is just…..come on. I think if there hadn’t been so much hype around it it wouldn’t be so annoying. But setting up all that context led to a huge disappointment!
The first thing that popped into my head when I watched that video was 'why is this just multiple versions of one 'type' of lesbian?' I was excited to see all the beautiful 'varieties' of lesbians only to be disappointed. Great essay, you put into words the odd feeling that I had!
Totally! I think if there hadn’t been the “open call” maybe it would’ve felt different to watch? I mean of ALL the people on TikTok that posted….
Thank you for this/for reading!
Exactly! Makes me wonder what criteria Lucy or whoever used for choosing people to be in the video.
Thank you for the thought-provoking article!
Oh jeez idk about thought provoking or article but I appreciate you!
AND YES that’s exactly my question!! What was the process of casting if you were just gonna choose the famous people anyways haha
thought provoking and article are very much applicable!
i guess the point was making the public feel included... idk haha
Extremely online lesbian discourse makes identifying as butch fraught. My (transmasc) boifriend and I both identify/identified as butch IRL. When I was more online, I identified as “masc” more often.
There’s something about online lesbian culture that overemphasizes and even fetishes the historical butch/femme dynamic. (There’s also an overemphasis/fetishization of stone tops/pillow princesses online, which I think is related. Obviously stone lesbians exist and are valid, but you’d think they are 50% of the population if you go by Reddit.)
I’ve always been made to feel like I was appropriating “butch” in online spaces because I’m more interested in butch4butch than an exclusive butch4femme. I’ve almost been made to feel that my unwillingness to fulfill the historical gender/sexual roles of a butch. This is stupid.
I do think it’s a slippery slope to talk about “overemphasis”. Ultimately, the Butch/femme dynamic was foundational to Queer liberation and I will never dismiss that history and significance. I think a lot of the problem lies in people not knowing their history and gaining all their knowledge from online interpretations of terms that are not just buzz words or aesthetics but identities.
I don’t disagree that online discourse makes most things fraught and also often distills things down to the simplest terms and easiest definitions — especially on TikTok, for example. I can understand what you mean re: overemphasizing certain dynamics. I also think that a lot of Online Queer Discourse is very online and not reflective of how queer people really live or talk or move through the world.
I’m largely interested in the ways that the transition from “Butch” to “masc” online parallels a rise in a specific normative presentation of thin, white queerness. I’m coming from a fat studies perspective and I do think it’s interesting that “masc” has taken over at the same time that specific body standards become popular again (not that they ever left, but….) and how that plays out online in particular. I don’t think that it is stupid to point that out.
that evergreen tweet “this is as butch as they can handle before they get scared”
EXACTLY
I’ve also noticed this weird shift from butch to masc that also seems to just … completely erase butches? Like yes butches are “masc” but they’re also butch! And I feel like there’s some rejection of that term now in favour of the skinny white mascs, as you’ve said. I still enjoyed the video though, despite Cara Delevingne lmao, and thought it was nice to see masc queers in community and also kissing.
Absolutely agree! It’s a very strange shift that I can’t help but believe is rooted in Thinness as a structure and how that’s seeing a big push on platforms like TikTok.
And yes I totally get it! I love to see hot queers kissing.
Yes! The tiktokification of queer culture & history is driving me mad anyway, this is just another sad example.
SPEAK ON IT!!!! Maddening to witness.
lmao I keep thinking I should write a post about it but I don't even know where to start!
I completely understand! I'm in the dissertation phase where sometimes I'm like....listen, I cannot even begin to formulate other Smart Thoughts right now haha.
Omg same!! But I do love writing my lil Substacks as a distraction from dissertation writing
Thank you Darby for yet again pointing out that people doing “totally groundbreaking stuff”, doesn’t fully hit the mark when it comes to inclusion. But mainstream normies are incapable of realizing.
I’m still convinced Cara paid her way to be there, like she does for all things she gets into.
I think Lucy has been reacting to people using the song as music for TikTok videos, maybe someone will gather an actual group of Butches and Studs to show how it’s done? But yet again an instance of them doing the work that someone else thought they had accomplished.
People reading this comment not realizing you're my big sister and thus giving me too much credit for a very off the cuff rant, but I love you!
I don't know, the whole thing is very odd -- and the idea that Lucy is the first person to have queer folks in a video is wild. But here we are!!! BRB gonna go listen to some k.d. lang.
Yeah thanks for sharing this piece. I wholly agree with your takes and appreciate you publishing this especially since the mainstream outlets r not talking abt it
Thanks so much!! It has been weird for sure. I appreciate you reading!!
Great piece! LD really missed the mark/an opportunity here!
Thank you! It was as articulate as I could be off the cuff. But DANIEL....I saw some people (who I can only assume were a lot younger) on TikTok saying something about how it was nice to see a mix of people (lol) including "masc of centre". WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?! Is this 8th grade Canadian social studies??? What's the CENTRE???!?!
Was the person who made that comment perhaps themselves an 8th grader?
MAYBE?! We were pretty insufferable in 8th grade!!